The title ' Heathen '

[ArdChieftain]

I've noticed that most, if not all Scandanavian bands and
followers of the Old ways, like to term themselves ' Heathen '.

I'm certainly not having a go at you for this, but please let
me to express the following opinion.

Heathen is a word invented by xtians, as a term for all who
don't follow their religion, and was intended to be both
insulting and derogatory. Hence, i prefer the term ' Pagan ',
which simply means a country dweller, essentially he/she who
works with in a spiritual sense, the Land.

Comments on this are welcome. I'm just curious.

[VauhtiParoni]

Oh, I didn´t know that. I think (at least) we, the Finns, often just take our English-Finnish-English dictionaries and translate Finnish words as they appear in our dictionaries and we don´t care much of the history or "tradition" of some English word, in this case "heathen". I got your point though, but then of course we don't follow THEIR religion, do we?

I´m an Epic Heathen Metaller and I´m proud!

[Hittavainen]

What next? Finnish heretic metal :lol:

[Pakana]

Heathen as a word is a thorn in the christian flesh. I am pagan for following my ways and heathen for NOT following their ways. Simple. :)

[vitr]

But calling yourself something relative to somehting else seems like you are accepting their standard to be valid. Why not use a label that's totally unrelated to Christianity, so as not to give them relevance?

Doesn't bother me either way, being atheist, but why compare yourself to someone else's standard.

In England, the term "heathen" is used as a term for ignorant, uneducated, stupid, socially irresponsible person" rather than literally a non-Christian.

With that conditioning, hearing someoen call themselves heathen is a little strange, like it is a total defiance of something. Like calling yourself "fukkwitt" or something.

OTOH, "pagan" is generally percieved by English Christains as primitive people sacrificing animals and having orgies in the moonlight or something. :lol:

And "atheist" seems to mean "selfish, disrespectful, rebellious, negative-attitude..." blah. Even if those who use it have never been to a church in their life, and just generally believe in an afterlife and guiding force, and hate all the jesus crap as my parents do. But everyone in the UK is Christian by default since we apparently have "the church of England" (pack mentality), and few look beyond the label.

English people will laugh at bible-bashers until the cows come home, and we are effectively a secular state compared to all that crap that went on around the civil war. Imagine, we had a war over what kind of Christianity was the "true" kind. :rolleyes:

Well, we have no natural predators, advanced healthcare and living conditions, so we have to rely on stupidity as a substitute for natural selection. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[VauhtiParoni]

ok, then I´m rather stupid than christian! :lol:

>Imagine, we had a war over what kind of Christianity was the "true" kind.

Yes, and in Northern Ireland they still have it.

[Hittavainen]

Though the war in N-Ireland is not really about religion, it's about nationality. The two 'different' religions are on the leading role because they at least have different names on each group. I think that's stupid and destructive. If they just can't find any other choices to strengthen their national identities than some jesus-crap, they should shut their stupid mouths and meld into each other.

[allissson]

"Heathen" means "blood of the soil"..........or so I thought.

This is the first I've heard of it being referred to as a christian-invented word. I've been using the terms "pagan' and "Heathen" interchangably for the past.......well, many years identify myself when asked what religion I am.

And pity the m/f that ever calls me a "witch" because that's a stupid modern christian trend-invented word that I do NOT identify myself with.

[allissson]

ArdChieftan - it is too true that the terms "Pagan" and "Heathen" are grossly abused in metal. :( 97% of the bands who claim to fly this banner haven't a first clue about the principles of it and nor do they care. Nothing offends me more than to see someone wielding an inverted pentagram claiming to be a Pagan or a Heathen. This is my main problem with black metal. One just as well kick Odin in the balls if he or she does something like that.

[Hittavainen]

That is just what i was talking about when i wondered when someone claims moonsorrow to be a satan-worhipping nazi band. (I heard that being a pagan and wearing a hammer is consider 'rasistic' in Sweden because some skinheads too claim themselves to be pagans and wear a hammer). Why don't those supersatanic-HC-blackdarkdeathmurdermetalnazibands stay on their own ground.
Like somebody said, it's different to make your own identity than create it by being different than others (for example faking to be a pagan when you're olny some sort of anti-christian).

[allissson]

Hittavainen - if there was an icon with tears I'd put it right here. What you say there is so true. :(

You know, I don't hate much but I do hate these dickless nazi aryan attitude lowlife skinhead m/f's. :mad: This ignorance-driven attitude is the primary reason why I will have nothing to do with black metal. I am not even interested in what they have to say because I hate all that they represent. I know more than I care to about them already and these are pathetically ignorant losers. What they don't realise is just how very close to christianity they really are.

[ArdChieftain]

Finally, some people who feel as passionately about this topic
as i do. Those fascist white power braindead macho men who
use Pagan imagery need to feel my Steel.

In years to come it will come back to haunt us if we don't dp
something now.



There's absolutely nothing wrong with being called a witch,
Wicca is a nice enough Path to investigate. Not my thing
though.

[Johannes Kostaja]

Ville! I was on the right tracks about the origins of the term pagan! :)

Btw... I recently watched a document about Himmler and the SS. He had something to do with an organization called "The blood of the soil", which basically dreamed of a life in the country, farming and stuff... That's one of the reasons they tried to invade Russia - they pictured this ideal place to recide in Ukraine. It's a shame they messed with pagan symbolics. And ruined the reputation of the swastika. Man, the nazis were @#%$ up... I have to check that document again to see what they were up to.

[allissson]

ahh..yes........the swastika. It is not an evil symbol at all. what hitler did to it amounts to no different than these christians and black metal posers are doing to the pentagram. He took the Aryan sunwheel and faced it anti-clockwise to represent destruction. it is no FU>CKING wonder that these BM as.sholes relate so closely to hitler because he, like them, was an ignorant waste of a soul. hitler was an ignorant as.shole who knew as much about the Aryan tradition and Paganism as these BM posers do.

Sorry, but this is a VERY touchy subject for me. It is the only thing I truly TRULY hate in this world.

ArdChieftan - Wicca is good if one is a solitary. Unfortunately politics has infected Wicca as it has the christian churches and in the very same way too. I have always been an eclectic solitary Pagan and always will be. I work alone because I don't trust most people when it comes to exerting that sort of energy in a group situation. I have my own ways which I am well set into. In all the years I've been in this belief system I have never seen it to be necessary to take a "magickal name". Everyone knows me by my real name (Allison) - even the dieties. There's no need to put on a cabaret to work with Nature. :)

[thekjide]

I think the swatiska was in fact originally the symbol of reincarnation in the hindu culture which has absolutely nothing to do with aryan race or any b.ullshit those @#%$ nazi a.ssholes might have said. It is like the eagle: it was a roman symbol for the authority of the emperor, I think.
What I want to say is that nazism is based on symbols that from cultures they tried to eradicate, so this ideology has no logic and therefore is total b.ullshit.

[Hittavainen]

Although the swastika symbolized two different forces in the Nordic countries, the order and the chaos, depending on if the wheel was spinning clockwise(order) or counterclockwise(chaos). I think Hitler used the chaos-version, im not sure, though. (Originally pagans used them both in the same figures, because there may not be order under there is chaos and so on). The symbol is clearly Arian origin but as you know, Hitler believed that the Nordics were Arians.
It is shame that it's reputation has been ruined because it's a nice symbol and i think i'ts also important too for some traditions.

Yes, blackmetal-ideology is very close to christianity, because for example Satan has a christian origin. There is no point turning upside down that what christians SAY they are (if you just don't want negative fame and publicity to get the teenagers to your side). People must realize what christianity is REALLY all about and then try to cut off the influences from their heads.

Aren't the word 'witch' originally formed from the ancient word 'wicca'?

[mmtutti]

this is what Merriam-Webster has to say about the origin of the word witch:

Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wIh holy.

my take on the situation in Northern Hibernia is that it really has nothing to do with religion anymore. it is something they've done for ages and don't know how to live without. the same thing in Israel, probably: it's their national sport to kill off each other over a piece of land. they all look the same to me, and the piece of land is nothing but rock, anyway. go figure.

slow evil BM = slow evil bowel movement?

[allissson]

If I'm not mistaken, the Aryan tradition IS a part of the Hindu culture and is also relative to Zoroastrianism.

Hittavainen - exactly :)

The swastika was also used like a hex symbol and I think all the Finnish war planes carried this symbol in WWI (in the positive way) but when it came time to use these planes in the Winter and Continuation wars the symbols were removed so as to not give the wrong impression. Or something like that anyway. In any case, it's a shame.

"People must realize what christianity is REALLY all about and then try to cut off the influences from their heads."

Indeed, but the sad thing is that for many people who have had this shi.t drilled into them since birth it it very difficult for them to shake these beliefs, especially when it's drilled into them everywhere they turn. Even in schools. This is when the strength of will and one's own mental power is really important. It's like de-programming and I have watched many people fight with themselves over this. It's torture. this is why I strongly feel that children should be raised with no beliefs until they decide for themselves what, when or if they want to adopt any.

"Aren't the word 'witch' originally formed from the ancient word 'wicca'?"

yeah, it is, but what it meant back then and what it represents now are totally different things. In these days, the word is used so haphazardly. Every goth poser and black metal wannabe satanist claims to be a "witch" yet they don't know the first thing about it. A majority of Wiccan traditions, particularly the Gardnerians and Alexandrians are solely concerned about coven politics, initiations, degrees, lineage, it's more an ego trip than religion. I have been around so many of these people and it disgusts me. Every New Ager, Psychic, Healer, Fortune Teller, all claiming to be "witches" as they charge people extortionate prices for their "services". And bottom line is that THAT is the mainstream society's perception of what a "witch" is today. And that is not what I want to be associated with.

"it's their national sport to kill off each other over a piece of land."

:lol: Maybe they should make that an olympic event :lol:
seriously though, that situation over there has gotten past the point of stupidity a long time ago.

[vitr]

I totally agree about the raising of children with no religious influence. So long as they learn to consider others, how to stand up for themselves, are listened to so that they learn to value their own opinions, and learn the moral values of the parents, then they have a good firm base to stand on and see over the bullshit. :lol:

Few people find the energy or will to deprogramme themselves of conditioning, religious and otherwise... it is a scary thing to analyse your life and try and seperate what is actually you and what is all the influences, your reaction to the influences and so on. eg. Anger. Is it you, or is it a reaction to something outside? It's very hard to go through and sort this out. Most people seem happy with not knowing who they are. :|

I wonder if there are lone Christians that have rejected the money-grabbing and ego-boosting crap of the church. I bet there are hundreds, and they ignore those door-knocking twats. That sh1t should be made illegal. Bothering people in their own home in their own time, just stinks. :mad: I'd have to get a few anti-personnel mines in my garden if they started that crap here. :evil:

You know what I like about this Forum? People are all intelligent and have somehting to say, and are willing to listen to others without taking the piss, unlike other Forums... :|

Why do some pagans need ceremonial names, anyway?

[allissson]

"Why do some pagans need ceremonial names, anyway?"

I have no idea. Best I can come up with is perhaps they are insecure about their abilities and think if they have some flamboyant name like Madame Moonbeam or Sun Raven or some crap like that that it gives them more credibility and boosts their ego.

"So long as they learn...........the moral values of the parents, then they have a good firm base to stand on and see over the bullshit."

Hmm.........in MOST cases perhaps, but looking around at these rednecks living here, it's probably better for the child to NOT learn their parents' moral values. :lol:

[ArdChieftain]

I agree Allisson, that's why my land is the way it is. Hate
breeds hate. It's disgusting. My son will learn to question all,
reason, and make judgements. And if he asks my advice., well,
all the better !!

Ardchieftain as a title has no connections with my esoteric
learnings. I've never felt the need to take a Magical name.
Politics in Wicca. Absolutely !! That's why i never bothered.

Working alone is fine, and i do disagree with ' joining ' any
grouping either, on the whole.
Yet, Rituals undertaken with a few like minded individuals is
an experience most profound.

Sometimes though it's best to join a group, with eyes WIDE
open, take from it what you need, then walk the solitary Path.

[Hittavainen]

"Why do some pagans need ceremonial names, anyway?"
That's a way to get rid of xtianity by telling this way to the whole of your mind that you're a pagan. Name is part of identity. The custom is in use in some other religious groups too (in the Orient). When you become a monk/nun for example, you will be given a new name.
But in new age paganism i think it's mostly used for egoistic and commercial purposes.

[mmtutti]

my name is not Marko Mikael Tutti. that is how I am called, but it is not my name: it cannot be my name, because I have not given it to myself. I do not identify with it in any way; it does not describe me in any way; that faceless name does not do me justice. there are countless other Markos and Mikaels in this world. if your name is John, what does it tell about you? nothing, except perhaps that you yourself are probably just as boring as your name.

you see, I believe it is (should be) for each and everyone to decide for themselves what they wish to be called. what gives my parents the right to decide something as personal as my name? I don't suppose you people like having others tell you what clothes to wear, or how to have your hair, either? I would like all names to be individually crafted to reflect the personality of their owners. I have gone by many names in my time, and will continue to do so.

with howlings,
Lord Mikael Sudenmoinen, a.k.a. Dryas Olden, a.k.a. markiisi sade, etc.

[VauhtiParoni]

Well, actually John means a toilet so I´d rather want to be called Marko than John! :lol:

[allissson]

"My son will learn to question all, reason, and make judgements."

Oh, trust me ArdChieftan - that he WILL too! :lol:

Hittavainen - I never did really think of ceremonial names that way because I was still a child when I abandoned the christian beliefs my parents tried to instill in me. I guess I never got far enough into it to have anything to get rid of. I guess that's why I never saw the need to take another name. What you say though, from a psychological point of view does make perfect sense.

mmtutti - what name would you choose for yourself? It is true that a lot of parents do not put thought into what they name their child - most kids are named after some trend or some relative or friend or TV character or celebrity. I've been given various nicknames by my husband and son but they are the only ones who call me by those names.